Honest users playing incorrectly?

[Vincent Clair]

yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=2328

Discuss.

[Sakura Mizhu]

@_@ got sooooo confused reading all that

[Vincent Clair]

Well I didn't wanna rip the important parts of it and post it here because it's not my words lol.

[Mizuki Haruka]

Could've quoted it and say where you got the source but neh.

But go ahead, break it down for those of us who have no effing clue what that meant. XD

[Vincent Clair]

You can just read the UNDELRINE.

There were quite a few rulings misunderstandings and illegal plays being made at SHONEN JUMP Championship Orlando. I started writing this article with the intent of discussing them all, creating a resource that would help competitors planning to attend SJC Austin prepare for that tournament. Unfortunately, one issue on the list ended up being far more complicated than any other. It's also likely to be the most useful to you as a tournament player.

The issue is Honest, and the fact that very few tournament level players understand how the Damage Step works. Past misunderstandings of how the Damage Step breaks down, as well as hidden quirks of one of its substeps, has created a situation where a handful of informed Duelists are getting way more mileage out of their Honests (and to a lesser extent, their Blackwing – Kaluts) than others.


The Big Misunderstanding
For many months after Honest was released in Light of Destruction, almost everybody believed that only one chain could exist in the Damage Step. It was thought that if a player attacked with a LIGHT monster and declared that he was activating Honest's effect “in the Damage Step”, that successive copies of Honest had to be chained to the first if they were to be played at all. If the defending player did so, the chained Honest was wasted. Because chains resolve backwards, the defending player's Honest would resolve, its ATK bonus would be applied, and the turn player's Honest would resolve next, effectively giving the attacking monster the ATK of the defender, PLUS the defender's boost from Honest.

This was widely considered to be true for many months, because the general player base had come under the impression that only one chain could take place in the Damage Step. You would attack, declare priority, drop your Honest, and short of a card like Divine Wrath there was no stopping you, because only one chain was possible.

But as time passed, it's turned out that this isn't exactly the case. The Damage Step consists of at least seven individual substeps, and while it's still possible to play that “trump Honest” that can't be beaten, the timing and specifics of its activation are in fact very different than most players believe. To explain what really happens, we need to take a bit of a closer look at the Damage Step.


There's a tremendous amount of things that can happen in the Damage Step: there are a number of game mechanics that are checked in any battle (such as the flipping of a face-down defending monster, the application of battle damage, and monster destruction), while there are also dozens, perhaps hundreds of unique effects that might or might not be present in a given battle (think Reflect Bounder, Nanobreaker, or Injection Fairy Lily).

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Substeps 1 through 3 deal with issues before damage is actually calculated - the triggering of certain effects at the start of the Damage Step, the flipping of face-down defenders, and the activation of effects "before damage calculation" respectively (you'll find that precise wording on cards like Ehren, Lightsworn Monk).

Substeps 5 through 7 deal with the fallout of the battle – the activation of effects that trigger due to battle damage, resolving flip, trigger, and continuous effects, and sending destroyed monsters to the graveyard.

Between those two groups of substeps is Substep 4, the period considered to be "during damage calculation". This substep is where ATK and DEF are finally compared, and battle damage is actually dealt.

This substep is unique, because only effects from the following categories can be activated:

-Effects that are stated in card text as activating during damage calculation (sometimes written as “during the Damage Step”, such as in the case of Injection Fairy Lily)
-Effects specifically ruled to be allowed during damage calculation
-Effects that negate either of the above.

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Honest and Blackwing - Kalut the Moon Shadow happen to fall into the second category - each has specific rulings stating that they can be activated during damage calculation.
Note that this list is different from the rest of the Damage Step, where the following are all legal for activation: #

-All Spell Speed 2 effects that change the ATK and/or DEF of monsters
-Counter traps
-Quick effects that can negate other cards and effects
-Effects that are stated in card text as activating in the Damage Step
-Effects specifically ruled to be allowed in the Damage Step

The second quirk of Substep 4 states that while other Substeps can contain multiple chains, only one chain can be started and resolved "during damage calculation." Once that chain resolves, battle damage will be applied and Substep 4 will finish.



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Taking Advantage Of Technicalities
The difference between the first three substeps and the fourth creates a situation that a knowledgeable player can take advantage of. If your opponent activates the effect of Honest (or Kalut, for that matter) during Substeps 1, 2, or 3, the resulting chain (and that monster's effect) will resolve in that substep.

You can then wait until later in that substep, wait for the next substep, or wait for Substep 4 to activate your Honest. If you wait until Substep 4 and activate Honest's effect to start the one chain permitted, further copies of Honest or Kalut will have to be chained to yours, and will be useless to your opponent. Your Honest will end up mimicking the boosted ATK of the opposing monster. Alternatively, if your opponent activates Honest in an earlier substep, thinking no further chains will be permitted, allowing that Honest to resolve and then activating a Kalut or two will often be enough to win the battle.

The proper way to make sure you don't fall into this trap is to avoid declaring "Honest in the Damage Step", and instead ask a series of Questions during battle.


As long as your Honest is the first one to be activated during damage calculation (Substep 4), successive copies of Honest will be useless, because they'll have to be chained to yours.

k, now discuss.

[Darkoda Arclade]

Wow, didn't know that the Damage Step had all of that in it. That's something fairly easy to exploit if you know about it.

[Masami Maeda]

Any good player would know the mechanics around the damage step and know how to exploit it by passing/playing with priority and timings. It's one of the critical ways of playing around certain cards or creating chain blocks based on activation windows.

The truth of the matter is that trying to follow these substeps in linear order will lead to a lot of arbitrary KSS rulings. You simply have to understand how the battle phase works.

Just note that a "battle" exists once the player declares an attack, enters damage step, (where speed spell 2 cards that change ATK/DEF, cards that negate effects, and cards that are ruled as 'can be activated during damage step'), and finally [c] during damage calculation when the monsters actually battle. This also solves some of the confusion regarding the definition of what constitutes a "battle" for Gladiator Beasts. No damage calculation = no battle.

It's a pretty good intermediate article, but you'll find that most everyone that does decently at an SJC would know these rulings and would be sure to be dropping those Honests and Kaluts during damage calc (after the window for defensive traps has passed).

As a side note: it's sometimes just as important to know in what order effects resolve after damage calculation as it is to know the substeps leading up to damage calc.